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Discussion Starter #1
(EDIT 24Jan2015....more questions below!)
I've had a good look at the maps available both on the TuneECU website and the extensive list started by kevxtx on the ktmsmt forum but can't find anything suitable (maybe I should say I couldn't see anything suitable!).....for one thing I don't really want to have to start DIY tweeking maps.

Anyone able to point me in the right direction of a suitable map? I intend to have the bike set up on a Dyno (CJS Racing) but Chris won't be able to fit me in for a few weeks so I need a decent map (decent = bike running reasonably well and certainly not too lean or anything potentially risky like that) to upload with TuneECU meantime.
I've sussed uploading maps with TuneECU.

# 2012 UK 990 SMT
# Rottweiler Intake Kit (OE airbox completely removed i.e. lower section ditched not just the 'lid')
# SAS hardware removed (blanking plates fitted and SAS unchecked via TuneECU)
# Secondary butterflies in/present (leaving them in [fttb anyway] on Chris's advice)
# LeoVince LV1 INOX EVOII (LV8414) cans (baffles in) inc 'Y' pipe

In browsing around came across a couple of bits of info......which raise more questions for me! :-O

.................................
1 Is SAI SAS? YES
2 Should i deactivate 02 sensor? YES
3. whats 2nd Throttle? Its the upper set of throttle plates. I have a map that limits them to 30% shut, makes the throttle smoother.
4.Idle speed control ? Tickover control, it ticks over faster when its cold.
5.EPC Turn off? Yes, that the 2nd and 3rd gear limiter.
(3) .......sounds interesting
(5) .......tell me more please......2nd/3rd gear limiter?

........
Put 2nd flies 100% open at all times and dont unheck it (works really well I think)
Then put the map into you bike, when its done, turn the ignitionkey off, disconnect PC, start the bike and let it stand on idle for 15 minutes WHITOUT touching ANYTHING.
Then its done :)
Secondary flies set to 100% across the board......different advice to above - thoughts/opinions please.

15 minute idle - anybody explain to me what's going on with that - time for the ECU to 're learn' bike setup?.........so if the ECU has been reprogrammed/remapped...why? What is the actual process that's going on?

THANKS!
 

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2nd flies removed or open is defo the way to go, 2&3rd gear limiter didn't seem to make much difference but worth doing hey . . .
 

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as Wazza said remove them ! I've tried mine with the smaller MotoHooligan ones - just the shafts - and totally removed and i have to say totally removed worked the best ! i'd also install a map that looks to be at a higher state of tune to yours to make sure its running rich not lean
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks guys.

2nd flies - I hear what you say and have read of the potential performance gains but my Dyno man said to leave them in (for now anyway), whilst I'll be happy to gain any extra 'power' possible overall 'rideability' across all riding conditions is important to me (I think BSD also prefer the 2nd flies left in.....for low rpm/low speed tuning?). I also noted a comment by kevxtx...... "less compression braking on over run when the throttle is closed" - one of the first things I noticed about the SMT was the reduced engine braking in comparison to the MTS1200 I've just sold and wouldn't want to reduce it further.....I like engine braking :D
I will however pass any/all info on to Chris my Dyno man.....thanks.

Hopefully there's someone out there with a UK bike with a similar setup to me and a suitable map I can make use of temporarily...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Trying to get my head around TuneEcu a bit better! This helped a lot: http://www.tuneecu.com/TuneECU_En/mapedit.html.........but still a few questions:


1) F1/F2, L1/L2 etc .........'1' is the front cylinder and '2' the rear?


2) 'Trim' tables..........e.g. 'Fuel Trim' - "Adjustment for the Fuel table F" ......huh?.....when/why??....explanation in laymans terms please. Ditto Ignition Trim.


3) "Air/fuel: the ratio mixture of air/fuel (AFR)" ..........can't see AFR shown in TuneEcu


4) F-L Switch........."the transition of the tables F after L and vice versa (RPM vs. throttle % open).".....understand that but don't understand the relationship with the figures shown in the table row heade 'Pos' against the listed RPM's


EPC = Electric Power Control. EPC is a system that retards the ignition on gear 1,2 and 3 (just noting that for the next time I forget! lol)


Thanks :D
 

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I'm using kevxtx map 21 on my smr with DNA stage 3 air filter and Rc8r velocity stacks with flies removed and actuator arms aswell. Runs so much smoother and pulls stronger throughout the rev range ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm working on #20 Long short stack 09.10.13.hex .............but only to have the bike up and running after mods (DNA airbox etc) before heading to the Dyno to have the bike set up!

A few answers from Kev himself: KTM 990 SMT Forum - Join the conversation
 

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Thanks guys.

2nd flies - I hear what you say and have read of the potential performance gains but my Dyno man said to leave them in (for now anyway), whilst I'll be happy to gain any extra 'power' possible overall 'rideability' across all riding conditions is important to me (I think BSD also prefer the 2nd flies left in.....for low rpm/low speed tuning?). I also noted a comment by kevxtx...... "less compression braking on over run when the throttle is closed" - one of the first things I noticed about the SMT was the reduced engine braking in comparison to the MTS1200 I've just sold and wouldn't want to reduce it further.....I like engine braking :D
I will however pass any/all info on to Chris my Dyno man.....thanks.

Hopefully there's someone out there with a UK bike with a similar setup to me and a suitable map I can make use of temporarily...
The removal butterflies improve the way the bike rides more than anything ! it smooths out the rev range . Your Dyno guy prob thinks there there for performance but sadly they are only setup for emissions and noise restriction . load a map up and take them off but leave the shafts in and give it a try you wont be disappointed
 
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Interesting thread. I've got no 2nd flies, SAS removed, piper cross filter and 2 into 1 can and no idea which map is on. Never tuned and ECU so alien territory to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@ prestige-boy.....the Dyno guy I'll be using is Chris at CJS RACING Ducati Cylinder Heads Tuning Gas Flow Dyno ECU Custom Mapping Bristol Bath, his reputation is second to none and I'm very familiar with his work/experience and the results he achieves (street and race bikes) and whilst my understanding of what the secondary butterflies purpose is is vague I'm sure he knows the science exactly ;-) Their action may well be 'tuned' in the factory to aid emissions control but my understanding is that their purpose is to control airflow into the motor smoothing out power delivery (for electronic fuel injection systems) where otherwise power delivery can be too 'off/on' - I found this on the BSD website...
On the Dyno, we remapped the MAP tables, and the main fuel tables individually per cylinder. We also remapped the secondary butterfly valves which open progressively as per the ECU, at lower rpm and even shut down a little in the higher gears, to open fully at a lower rpm. This also helps deal with the cruising speed hesitation we felt on the road test, as at small throttle openings in higher gears the secondary butterflies are in full operation.
So for out and out 'power' yes removal will give good results via less restriction to air induction but for 'street' bikes my understanding is that a good Dyno tuner will tune the operation of the 2nd butterflies for the best balance between power and 'rideability'.
I've tweaked the operation of them in the map I've loaded to my bike (THANKS to 'KevInYorks for the plus 35% tip;-) temporarily pending Dyno tuning - TuneEcu screenshots....

2nd butterflies standard throttle position table:


2nd butterflies modified throttle position table:
 

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I removed the flies and shafts on my sdr I also tried the rc8 stacks best results was with standard stacks. remove the shafts then switch of on Tune ecu
 

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Iam still looking for a reason for the 2nd flies . Why would KTM go to the lengths and substantial cost of such an addition that is even tuneable separately if the engine runs better without them ?
also so much generalisation about the 990 and its tuning and mapping , the later engine has different cylinder heads and mapping so earlier tuning mods and maps will be different .
 

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Change of heads/mapping......with effect from?......point me in the direction of more info?
Thnx
2012 or late 2011 on which is when the tank was coloured instead of black and abs was fitted ? the heads are very different , hence totally different spark plugs and Far less complaints about poor fueling on the later models too .
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You'd think Wikipedia or the likes would have the definitive description of what the secondary butterflies / secondary throttles purpose is but not that I could find....anywhere! :-(

Did come across a couple of very useful posts on forums elsewhere though.....

On ADVRidercom, (dates back to 2010) thread title: KTM 990 Secondary Butterfly Valve Sizes
KTM 990 Secondary Butterfly Valve Sizes - ADVrider

First off, the secondary butterflies on factory motorcycles are there to limit intake noise, and, either intentionally or by default, limit engine power at low rpms. This is to allow motorcycles to pass various emissions and noise limits necessary for the manufacturer to bring them to market. While a secondary system can be used for performance enhancement, such is not the case in factory bikes, especially the SD.

Removing the secondaries is an option, but brings about another challenge: unless the fueling is adjusted to compensate for the now very large airflow at low rpms when the throttle is cracked open, the engine runs lean momentarily. This causes a momentary stumble until fuel delivery catches up with air volume.


This problem isn't seen at higher rpms for two reasons: first, the ECU eventually opens the secondaries all the way on the SD, but not until about 6000 rpm, well above the average gear/rpm combinations for cruising. Until then they are mostly closed, allowing only a small portion of airflow the engine is capable of handling for the sake of less intake noise, and arguably, 'safer' (read: less wheelie-prone) power delivery. This is also why the stock ECU map retards engine timing in gears 1-3.


However, removing secondaries and remapping the ECU to deliver more fuel doesn't address another consideration: the velocity of the intake charge. Ideally, the air intake should be flowing as quickly as possible, but in a large bore intake such as the SD, low rpms are not conducive to fast airflow.


Enter the new reshaped secondaries. Although designing an ideal set of plates to work with the current opening rate of the ECU's programming
ideally requires some knowledge of fluid dynamics and a buttload of dyno time, Aaron's Ovals seem to be a pretty good educated guess right out of the box. They allow more air to flow into the motor when the secondaries are normally nearly closed, maintaining a faster intake velocity; this faster intake does not need as much time to speed up when sudden large throttle openings are made. Additionally, they create turbulence, which is actually very desirable as it enhances the mixture with the fuel vapor from the injectors and is less likely to cause a standing wave, or intake resonance, mentioned by JehadJoe. These waves cause the intake air column to momentarily stall, causing the motor to run rich and stumble until the intake air column changes speed and breaks the resonance.


Finally, secondary flies can show some increase in top end hp because they split the intake airflow, again, introducing turbulence and reducing resonance. The gains are not typically large, usually only low to mid single digit gains.


The biggest benefit of a properly setup secondary system is a fatter torque curve that starts lower in the rev range. Peak hp is one thing, but if its curvey roads, that low and midrange torque makes riding the twisties a brilliant experience.


All that being said, while I'm certain that Aaron's Ovals made in noticeable improvement in my bike's power delivery compared to the same bike with the stock secondaries, I can't comment on how it stands against a similarly tuned bike with no secondaries at all. It would take time I don''t have to spend on a dyno running one set of plates, then another. I'm running so good right now I don't want to change anything. So, pick your poison and enjoy, but I think Aaron made a pretty darned good guess at the shape and size for these secondary plates.
Not KTM related but interesting comment re air intake velocity
Do NOT remove your secondary throttle plates! - Stromtrooper Forum : Suzuki V-Strom Motorcycle Forums
I put my Vee's secondaries back in because it made throttle response smoother at low RPM. Which makes me faster in the twisties...

Lots of people yank them out, which makes low-end throttle response more crude and abrupt, which most people mistake for "more power".




To answer your question, the secondary throttle system helps manage and smooth throttle response in part-throttle situations by keeping the velocity of the air/fuel in the intakes high.


It's also used to partially restrict engine output in 5th and 6th gear, but this is not its primary function.
This also is interesting...
superduke forum - some good reasons to keep the O2-sensor working
 

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With secondary flies fitted there can be a lag in throttle response, they open a little later than the first flies this can be tuned yes, but with them removed plus the shaft there is the more direct link to the rear tyre plus shafts and flies removed less turbulence better flow at wot. Secondary flies are supposed to help with fuel atomization at small throttle openings enabling the fitment of larger bore carbs or throttle bodies
 

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You only have issues if you do not run on a dyno and have the bike set up properly as said before they are there for emissions only we do not have throttle bodies with adjustable inlet tracks so they serve no purpose at all but to "Try " and smooth out a over strangled engine ( Emissions ) take all this stuff off and get the bike set-up on the dyno and it will be smooth with maximum power all way through the rev range Just like a bike with a carb

Any issues people have seem to be when they do not set there bike up properly afterwards and just tear bits off
 
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Any issues people have seem to be when they do not set there bike up properly afterwards and just tear bits off[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with that . Everyone saying how much easier fi is to tune than carbs etc , it seems to me it's just easier to mess with and tearing bits off wily nilly seems to be the thing to do because everyone else does it .
I wonder how many people are re mapping with tune ecu who have no idea what they are doing , if they had a carb and some spanners they would probably never even try but if you don't have that basic knowledge it's gotta be a fools errand .
 

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Indeed. How do you measure the impact of a tune ecu without a dyno run anyway?
 
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