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How did you retard the ignition?!

I managed to remove the pickup coil from the metal bracket that is used to hold it in place inside the flywheel cover. I then cut the bracket and re-welded it so that the 'tang' that holds the coil now holds it about 4mm further around the circumference of the flywheel in the same direction that the flywheel turns. I worked out on paper the 4mm is about 5 degree of retard. (I went for 5 degrees for no particular reason!)

I cocked up the bracket on the first attempt, the coil was to close to the trigger 'lump' on the flywheel which locked the engine up!, I had to re-cut the bracket and reweld it. I also had to grind a bit of the casing away on the inside to get the coil to fit in its new location.

It all took hours and hours, I hate working on that side of the engine, trying to hold everything in place whilst fitting the casing is a pain, the grommet for the wires never wants to locate properly and the idler gear gasket (The crappy paper one) always break, they are 8 quid each!.....More KTM crappy-ness for you, the holes in the gasket are smaller than the locating dowels which is half of the reason that the gaskets break. (I have cut a tiny slot in each dowel to allow the gasket to sit in the slot.
 
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Discussion Starter #302
sweeeet! that's what we like to hear steve.

its really important to not jet it in a traditional manner.

as you found the necw syphon breaks at 205 but the needle is a bit rich for a 300 and a stic.

the NECJ will syphon break at 200-202 with a 113a tube. this will clean up the jetting and remove any pipe bang on deceleration.

if you want snappier in the midrange go NECK and 198 main

I prefer the NECJ as its smoother for enduro and hill climbs. sidecarbod prefers the NECK for cleaner running and snap for trail riding.

not meaning to sound like a broken record but keep the 52 pilot and only use clip 1 and 2 as the length seems very important
 

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Wow! I think you must be the first person to have mechanically retarded the ignition on an exc. Hats off.

Those paper gaskets are rubbish. I just used to use grease instead.
 

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Discussion Starter #304
sidecarbod: when we were setting up the Power cdi on a friends bike Fabio ( the inventor) remapped it to run 4 degrees more advance low down. this gave cleaner running and more torque.
the top end was retarded which helps power.

you should see a nice increase in top end pull with less advance up top with a small decrease down low.
nice work btw 👍
 

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sidecarbod: when we were setting up the Power cdi on a friends bike Fabio ( the inventor) remapped it to run 4 degrees more advance low down. this gave cleaner running and more torque.
the top end was retarded which helps power.

you should see a nice increase in top end pull with less advance up top with a small decrease down low.
nice work btw 👍
Cheers Dude! The reason that I wanted to try this was concerned about the ignition being over advanced at the top end now that my CR has been pushed up. 2 strokes are odd creatures that run an ignition curve that is totally backwards compared to 4 strokes, the ignition retards as the revs rise even though you would think that as the revs go up the mixture needs to be ignited sooner in order to give the flame front time to propagate across the combustion chamber. I would like to do more work on the timing but due to the design of the engine it is no easy, you can not even run a strobe light on it because you can not run the engine with the flywheel cover off.

I suspect that I have lost a bit of low down snap which is not want I really want to happen.
 

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Today we tested the NECW in clip 3, which did not work well, but we said we try it just to see how things change. Then we put it back in pos 2 and tried different air screw settings and found that the air screw only affects the very small throttle openings and idle speed.
The idle was easy to set the only thing we noticed was that the idle screw is further in than without the stic, meaning that the STIC obviously requires the slide in a higher position (more air). As with other bikes the pipe bang was worse with the stic. And the spring George supplies with the long idle screw is simply too short. The idle screw moves up and down once past 3.5 turns open. But we found a bigger spring that we used additionally to the supplied one and the screw stopped moving around. We also noticed that some Keihin carbs come without an o-ring for the air screw. As I had one in my carb spare parts box we installed it, but we didn’t feel any difference. Then, after a few test runs we reached the point were we both said, it is not perfect but at least it is already good.

The next step was that I took the slide out of my Gasser’s carb and installed it into my mates carb. His was a 6 with notch and mine is a 7 without notch. I was surprised as the difference was significant, the burble we had at slight throttle openings was almost gone and the idle rpm went up a bit. Why it went up I don’t know as I expected it to drop, the slide lets less air through as it has no notch but obviously the big cut out plays a role too.
However, I could turn the idle screw a tad further out. The burble is now much better, the bike pulls very strong through the mid and has a lot of over rev. We tried the air screw from 2.5 to 4.5 turns out and decided whatever the idle does we don’t care we concentrate on how the engine picks up and behaves when rolling on the throttle. Though it was a bit boring we probably did 20 laps with the air screw out from 2.5 to 4.5 and we agreed that it felt best at 3.25 turns. Unfortunately that brought back a slight rich condition at smallest throttle openings or better said it made it worse.

What we achieved today is a lot better than what I expected and it is light years better than when I had the STIC in the GasGas. I admit that pisses me off a bit but I am happy that the Kato works so good with it. Bosso, my mate said he will organize a 300 TPI which we will ride back to back with his bike on Wednesday to see what feels better. For tomorrow, if the weather is fine we have planned to try the NECW in clip 1 and see if we can get rid of the burble down low. We also will try different PV springs. Bosso ordered a NECK and a NECJ and we hope to get them either Friday or Monday. He will also visit a guy I do not know who might be able to lend us the NECK and NECJ needles.

more to come...
 

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The notch does let more air through the carb but because the air is concentrated over the needle jet orifice and idle hole it will cause more fuel to enter the air stream, the result is that the idle mixture becomes richer if the slide has a notch. In addition to the 6 slide having a notch the fact that it is a 6 will make the low throttle openings richer than the 7.0 slide.

I have found that the idle mixture strength is very much controlled by the thickness of the parallel section of the needle, if the mixture is rich at idle then the idle screw needs to be turned in to get any sort of idle from the engine, if you swap out the needle and the result is that the idle speed has gone up it will be because the needle is causing the mixture to lean off to a ratio that the engine is happier with.

I've been doing some tests with a throttle position marker, I would have said that my engine only had burble at VERY small throttle openings (2-5%) but the marker shows that I get burble up to 10% throttle, this sounds bad but in reality it feels OK when riding the bike. I have carried out the same test with my Lectron carb, it actually has burble up to 15-20% throttle opening and yet I was quite happy with that carb when I was using it.

I must admit that the idle seems more stable and reliable with the Lectron compared to the STIC setup.
 

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Thanks SCB, that explanation then confirms the reaction we saw with the "notchless" slide 7 we installed.
I can confirm that the idle speed reacts to the thickness of the needles straight section, but it is not much. I am happy how the engine runs with the NECW and I am looking forward to further test with other needles.

Concerning the low down burble everyone has a different level of acceptance. So it is indeed hard to say what is ok and what not. Personally I have my own way of testing it. First I roll on in first gear using the smallest throttle openings. Then I start in first gear as I would normally do. I repeat both tests in second gear as I 90% use the second gear to start. Starting in second requires more throttle and the burble is either gone or less. If I have absolutely no burble in second I do a last test, rolling in gears 2, 3 and 4. I open the throttle slowly and check how the engine picks up. I accept a slight burble in first gear and during my "rolling test".

Most of my mates don't feel a burble as they ride aggressive and faster and roll the throttle more aggressively. So what I am doing is a bit of hair splitting but I want it perfect for me, not anyone else.

10% throttle opening is very little, it just sounds much. I often hear people complaining about problems at around ¼ throttle but when I watch them they roll the throttle past ½ and do not even realise how far they have opened it.
 

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That is exactly what I have done with a spring I had in my toolbox :)

I am pretty sure that we will be a step further with our tuning on Sunday evening....
 
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Short update: after intense testing we are on the way to perfection. Thanks to Sand and sicecardbod's hints and recommendations we saved tons of time. We have all the needles and jets and as we have to give the needles back (borrowed only) we need to finalize everything today. Damn, I'll miss the motoGP...

More later...
 
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4 ½ days of testing are over and we got a final result :)

I try to keep it as short as possible, but that's difficult.
The bike is a 2017 KTM with a 38 short body Kehin (square top), stock engine and cylinder head, stock CDI and stock exhaust.

Most important, the KTM runs extremely well with the STIC and the owner is very happy. I am happy too but liked a different set up better. We found two settings that work equally well, one of them is snappier, too much for me but Bossi (my mate) likes it and as it is his bike that’s fine for me.

Many thanks to Sand300 and Sidecarbod for the hints that finally put us in the right direction and saved us a lot of time. No we did not just test what you guys recommended, we tested lots of other combinations.
I admit I hate to have a needle in clip 1 and that made things more difficult for us until I forced myself to bite the bullet and test all needles in clip 1 and 2. The JD_red IIII in clip 1 worked well too but the NECx worked better for us and the needles are easier to understand as they have a very clear numbering system and they are available in half clip differences.
We tried numerous jets, needles and also three slides and I think if I see a carb in the next days I will puke. After I replaced all Phillips head screws with allen screws I dare say I can change a needle faster than 99% of all skilled mechanics that I know and probably those I don’t know. I can even change a whole carb in minutes and I have changed main and pilot jets at least 25 times in the last 4 days.

The most complicated thing for me and Bossi was that we did not understand what is going on in the mid range quite a while. What we have learned about carbs over decades is useless when working with the STIC. We do not know why and we do not want to know why but in fact a bigger main jet leans out the mixture. Yes, it LEANS the mixture in a certain rev range. Once we understood that this is reproducible and not an effect that appears by chance with one combination of needle and jets we saw a light at the end of the tunnel. It seems clip positions 1 and 2 had a major effect on the mid range power and at the same time on how the engine responded on very small throttle openings.

Using a slide 7 without notch, and 52 pilot jet right from the start saves a lot of time. Testing with other slides and pilot jets is wasting time but it might make sense at different altitudes or at different temperatures.
Three needles work well, NECW, NECJ, NECK. It is also mandatory to have the needles in top or second from top clip positions.



Best set up for me:

Slide 7, no notch
Main jet 205
Pilot jet 52
NECJ in clip 1
Airscrew 4 turns out
Float height 9mm
Iridium Spark Plug
98 Octane petrol
60:1 premix (Fuchs Race Oil, 130° flash point)
Altitude 490 to 990 feet
Temperature 16 to 26°

The bike is transformed with unbelievable grunt, clean and crisp at small throttle openings a huge midrange power and a lot of over rev. I had to change the red spring vs the yellow one as it was just too much for riding technical sections. Finally ended with the green one. I also liked it with the needle in #2 but I think it was a tad better in #1.

Bossi’s set up is exactly the same except that he prefers the NECK with a 200 main jet and yellow spring. We had the air screw a tad further in with the NECK. I think it is too much and it requires the green spring but he rides more open, faster tracks, less enduro more a mix of MX and fast trails. The front end lifts in 4th gear and the bike really rips. For sure the strongest KTM 300 I ever had the pleasure to ride.

Any downsides? Errr....yes. Fuel consumption is higher but not much. Maybe because we rode faster than usual as the engine performed so well. The idle speed is a bit unstable and changes require more input from the idle screw than usual. We recommend an aftermarket idle screw which can be turned without tools. We never got the idle as stable as with the stock carb but it was good when it just ticked over, close to stalling. Finally the price, the STIC is not cheap but considering the advantages you get we both said the price is OK.

I have to thank George Boswell for sending the STIC, three needles, the long air screw with spring and stuff for free. George, feel free to copy my test result to whatever forum you like.

Bossi, the guy with KTM is in tears as he cannot keep the STIC as I promised a friend who already has a STIC with the .114 tube that he can test the one George sent me. (.113 tube)


George, do you want me to send the STIC-kit back or to someone else for testing? Let me know please.
 

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Sterling work Steve. I was going to ask how the float bowl screws stood up, but you have already answered that. The NECJ lives on (again)! :)
 

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Good stuff!

Although I suspect that you are a bit of a 'limp wrist' for preferring the NECJ over the NECK :p
 

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Good stuff!

Although I suspect that you are a bit of a 'limp wrist' for preferring the NECJ over the NECK :p
Yes, I am, probably. And I am old and slow, need my time to react :sneaky:

The NECK though it isn't so much different is too much in my opinion. The NECJ slightly tames it, the mid range is richer and it accelerates a bit smoother. To be honest after the first two days I was lost and could not find my way until I started to do it step by step, change only one thing at a time and made notes. Sometimes I was close to light the darn carb up and after a while I thought I don't feel much differences, but then it got better and better...
Bossi brought a friends TPI and I wasn't amused because we did so many laps, always the same boring track. The TPI is smoother has a nice stable idle. It feels gutless compared to the stic'ed 300. The carbed bike is way stronger over the whole rev range, only the last quarter the TPI can match it. We could ride it a gear too high and it would still chug me up the hill. Where I normally need the clutch it just chugs like a diesel engine. It is indeed astonishing.

Many things have been said about the STIC, that it compensates altitudes, temperatures and it works better than an FI. I can't confirm that. All I can say is, it works and we had temperature changes from 10 degrees and about 5 or 6 hundred feet altitude changes and there was no difference. But I tend to believe that it would work at 2000 feet also and it will probably need no changes.

Also I am convinced that US petrols are way different than ours as no setting I have copied from US forums did work well with our bike.
 
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4 ½ days of testing are over and we got a final result :)

I try to keep it as short as possible, but that's difficult.
The bike is a 2017 KTM with a 38 short body Kehin (square top), stock engine and cylinder head, stock CDI and stock exhaust.

Most important, the KTM runs extremely well with the STIC and the owner is very happy. I am happy too but liked a different set up better. We found two settings that work equally well, one of them is snappier, too much for me but Bossi (my mate) likes it and as it is his bike that’s fine for me.

Many thanks to Sand300 and Sidecarbod for the hints that finally put us in the right direction and saved us a lot of time. No we did not just test what you guys recommended, we tested lots of other combinations.
I admit I hate to have a needle in clip 1 and that made things more difficult for us until I forced myself to bite the bullet and test all needles in clip 1 and 2. The JD_red IIII in clip 1 worked well too but the NECx worked better for us and the needles are easier to understand as they have a very clear numbering system and they are available in half clip differences.
We tried numerous jets, needles and also three slides and I think if I see a carb in the next days I will puke. After I replaced all Phillips head screws with allen screws I dare say I can change a needle faster than 99% of all skilled mechanics that I know and probably those I don’t know. I can even change a whole carb in minutes and I have changed main and pilot jets at least 25 times in the last 4 days.

The most complicated thing for me and Bossi was that we did not understand what is going on in the mid range quite a while. What we have learned about carbs over decades is useless when working with the STIC. We do not know why and we do not want to know why but in fact a bigger main jet leans out the mixture. Yes, it LEANS the mixture in a certain rev range. Once we understood that this is reproducible and not an effect that appears by chance with one combination of needle and jets we saw a light at the end of the tunnel. It seems clip positions 1 and 2 had a major effect on the mid range power and at the same time on how the engine responded on very small throttle openings.

Using a slide 7 without notch, and 52 pilot jet right from the start saves a lot of time. Testing with other slides and pilot jets is wasting time but it might make sense at different altitudes or at different temperatures.
Three needles work well, NECW, NECJ, NECK. It is also mandatory to have the needles in top or second from top clip positions.



Best set up for me:

Slide 7, no notch
Main jet 205
Pilot jet 52
NECJ in clip 1
Airscrew 4 turns out
Float height 9mm
Iridium Spark Plug
98 Octane petrol
60:1 premix (Fuchs Race Oil, 130° flash point)
Altitude 490 to 990 feet
Temperature 16 to 26°

The bike is transformed with unbelievable grunt, clean and crisp at small throttle openings a huge midrange power and a lot of over rev. I had to change the red spring vs the yellow one as it was just too much for riding technical sections. Finally ended with the green one. I also liked it with the needle in #2 but I think it was a tad better in #1.

Bossi’s set up is exactly the same except that he prefers the NECK with a 200 main jet and yellow spring. We had the air screw a tad further in with the NECK. I think it is too much and it requires the green spring but he rides more open, faster tracks, less enduro more a mix of MX and fast trails. The front end lifts in 4th gear and the bike really rips. For sure the strongest KTM 300 I ever had the pleasure to ride.

Any downsides? Errr....yes. Fuel consumption is higher but not much. Maybe because we rode faster than usual as the engine performed so well. The idle speed is a bit unstable and changes require more input from the idle screw than usual. We recommend an aftermarket idle screw which can be turned without tools. We never got the idle as stable as with the stock carb but it was good when it just ticked over, close to stalling. Finally the price, the STIC is not cheap but considering the advantages you get we both said the price is OK.

I have to thank George Boswell for sending the STIC, three needles, the long air screw with spring and stuff for free. George, feel free to copy my test result to whatever forum you like.

Bossi, the guy with KTM is in tears as he cannot keep the STIC as I promised a friend who already has a STIC with the .114 tube that he can test the one George sent me. (.113 tube)


George, do you want me to send the STIC-kit back or to someone else for testing? Let me know please.


Steveman, great job, your efforts are priceless, keep the parts, a great investment, thank sand300 and sidecarbod for me. Send me your shipping address along with your handle, so I can place the name with your handle. I am now 78 (too old to ride, but not too old to think and invent); this dream would not be possible without dedicated enthusiast like you , your friend, and the others on your forum, I have great admiration for you guys . The larger jet issue is something I have practiced over the years, its called the "siphon breaker method" and it works. The 125's use a 205 main jet and they are crisp from bottom to top. The attached is in the 6-page tips and procedures that I send with each product. I know it is counter-intuitive, however it works. Could you email me the measurements of the needles you are using, as you know we are preparing to make new needles. it is obvious that the needle needs to be longer if we are in the 1 and 2 clip. Again , thanks for your tireless effort, you,and your friends George


Siphon Breaker method for addressing STIC low-end richness: This method for addressing low end richness is counterintuitive. Please read carefully. The STIC has aggressive acceleration and power enrichment passages that are triggered just off idle. If you encounter this low-end richness and you are using a main jet in the Keihin with STIC of #190 and below, increase the main jet to 198 through 205 and increase the pilot jet to 52. Here is a good example the YZ125X that you are seeing in these three videos, utilizes a Keihin 38mm STIC carburetor, and is jetted with a 205 main jet, 50 pilot, JD RED (II II) STIC needle 4th clip, air screw at 3 ½ turns out. Compare this analogy to what we are dealing with. Most passages that flow liquids have a tipping point wherein, as the jet orifice becomes bigger (at the tipping point), it takes more differential pressure (suction) to pull the fuel through the orifice. Analogy: with the atmospheric pressure being equal on the surface of a fluid under both scenarios, drinking a soft drink from a glass or cup through a one (1”) straw will require more suction than that required through a ¼ inch straw, further, when the suction is diminished to any degree on the one inch straw, flow will stop immediately, thus, you are experiencing the siphon breaker method of causing the flow to increase slower and to stop abruptly. In the 1980 through 1990 period of years, the Twin Tracker snow mobiles utilized this method on Mikuni carburetors by increasing a #550 main jet to a #900, of course these jets were drilled to those specifications. Believe it or not this concept works. In the World Snowmobile Championship, the Champ 340cc class that was won with Boswell 48mm Mikuni carburetors with the STIC jet tubes, this set-up utilized jets equivalent to #720 main jets. Another issue, since it takes more suction to pull the fuel up the tube, the mixture tends to be more vaporous and the flow will diminish quicker.
 

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Dear Steveman, tell your friend I am sending him a new 113A block for letting you use his bike. I will send it to you, need your shipping address along with your handle. I have so many positive results, I need to have names with the handles. Thank you for your dedication and time, glad the SIC has improved your skills in your quick change methods. I will send you some confidential information in how the STIC works for a better understanding (not for publication), yes, the STIC is counter-intuitive, welcome to my world. I am grateful for your efforts as well as your friend, sidecarbod, Doc, sand300, and many others on your forum. With input from you guys, I know how to make changes to accommodate and improve issues, like I said too old to ride, but not too old to think and design things based on + 50-years of real-world experience, meaning things that work. George
 

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Steveman, great job, your efforts are priceless, keep the parts, a great investment, thank sand300 and sidecarbod for me. Send me your shipping address along with your handle, so I can place the name with your handle. I am now 78 (too old to ride, but not too old to think and invent); this dream would not be possible without dedicated enthusiast like you , your friend, and the others on your forum, I have great admiration for you guys . The larger jet issue is something I have practiced over the years, its called the "siphon breaker method" and it works. The 125's use a 205 main jet and they are crisp from bottom to top. The attached is in the 6-page tips and procedures that I send with each product. I know it is counter-intuitive, however it works. Could you email me the measurements of the needles you are using, as you know we are preparing to make new needles. it is obvious that the needle needs to be longer if we are in the 1 and 2 clip. Again , thanks for your tireless effort, you,and your friends George
Thank you very much George! Appreciate that I can keep the parts. If you allow I will pass them on to a friend with a 250, dunno which exact model year. I will not give it to him as a present nor will I sell it to him. I just want him to test it, if he agrees.
Your credit is appreciated but should go to Sand300 and Sidecarbod as they made my testing much easier and they were willing to help me. So finally I just ended with what the guys recommended.

I will e-mail you my address and I guess with "handle" you mean my forum-name. Sorry I am not a native speaker and have quite a lot of linguistic deficits.
Unfortunately I am unable to measure the needles I used as I don't have a digital outside micrometer. I used the NECW, NEDW, NECK, NECH and NECJ needles from Suzuki. I'll attach a document that shows these needles from rich to lean plus their starting diameters. I also tried the supplied JD needles and the red one was better than the blue one but did not work as good as the NECK and NECJ.


Dear Steveman, tell your friend I am sending him a new 113A block for letting you use his bike. I will send it to you, need your shipping address along with your handle. I have so many positive results, I need to have names with the handles. Thank you for your dedication and time, glad the SIC has improved your skills in your quick change methods. I will send you some confidential information in how the STIC works for a better understanding (not for publication), yes, the STIC is counter-intuitive, welcome to my world. I am grateful for your efforts as well as your friend, sidecarbod, Doc, sand300, and many others on your forum. With input from you guys, I know how to make changes to accommodate and improve issues, like I said too old to ride, but not too old to think and design things based on + 50-years of real-world experience, meaning things that work. George
George, thank you that is great I already informed him and he says "many thanks!" to you and he is not sure if he can accept your offer, he is a bit embarrassed. Whatever, send it to me and I will install it in his bike.

Haha, yes I am pretty fast in changing jets and needles now but have to admit I was a bit annoyed by doing the same things so often and I also had to change the gasket from the top cover once. It is different if you work in short sin your garage or in full MX gear in the paddock :) If I may I'd like to make a suggestion concerning the air screw. Just an idea and no criticism. It would make sense to make the air screw a bit shorter. The part where the thumb wheel or knob or whatever you call it sits. Instead of the second spring we would suggest the inner, small spring to be a tad longer and with more resistance. Just an idea and nothing of importance.
I am 60 in a few month and too old to ride too but as long as I am able to swing my leg over these darn bikes I'll keep on riding.
I will e-mail you tonight and send you my full name and address plus two forum-nick-names (handles?). Two because "Steveman" is identical to "Doc Brown" on Thumper Talk ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #319
steve dont listen to sidecarbod about the NECJ ! we'll be going forward with smooth grunt whilst his NECK equipped bike will be flipping him off into a tree! 🤣 🤣

in all seriousness it's great that it's working well.
the STIC is such a great product. certainly the best bolt on power money can buy. I think I'd go as far to say it's a better purchase than a aftermarket cylinder head as with the STIC you have the added benefit of a smoother running bike. even the suspension works better coming out of corners as the power has a better curve.
 

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Hahaha.... he is probably a much better rider than me and maybe he can control das wild 300 bronco :) The NECK with its thicker straight diameter delivers super crisp response at low throttle openings and that is what SCB is after. The problem is the NECK is also a clip leaner if I remember right.

To be honest I am too slow to judge if the suspension is affected, but Bossi is really a fast guy I will see what he says when I install the STIC that George offered him. At the moment he is in tears because when we were ready I disassembled his carb and installed the OEM jet block. The STIC now goes to a friend for testing in a 250 ....

If one can get the STIC dialed in I'd say it is worth every cent and it is even better than some cylinder heads as there is the possibility to tune it in different directions, snappy and very wild or tamer with grunt. The main problem I see, by the way the same problem with smart carbs and Lectron, is the fact that you need a different approach. It is really easy to get lost by thinking it works like a standard carb.

I am sad that I did not get any further with my Gasser and I was unable to get rid of the pinging, but on the KTM we achieved a huge improvement.
 
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