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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi. Last Friday (17th June - heatwave day) I was out on a ride in the country lanes when after an hours ride and the bike suddenly would choke up when under load. It gradually got worse especially when going up hill. I was nursing it riding around 3-4K Revs. I had half a tank and was thinking maybe I am running out of fuel? I nursed it along trying to reach a petrol station a few miles ahead but the bike all but died so I stopped and turned the bike off. The engine seemed hotter than normal. Couldn’t tell if that was a fault or because it was an exceptionally hot day but the temp gauge never passed 50%.

Whilst stopped I spoke to my local KTM dealer. Whilst on hold at one point I started the bike up and it started fine and revved ok. I finished the call which was not much more than “drop it in and we’ll take a look”. So after about 10/15 mins of cooling down I road off and reached the petrol station. Bike was running fine again. Filled up half a tank to brim the tank. On my way home I reached a 5 mile stretch of dual carriage way. Half way along it started choking up again but not quite as bad. Its been in my garage since parked up.

It’s booked in at KTM for code reading but as I said to them no fault codes have shown up on my dash.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance.
 

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Has the tank been off recently, or the panel around the fuel cap?

Sounds like a partially blocked tank breather hose, the fuel pump will pull a vacuum in the tank if the air can't get back in and the bike will struggle to run or stop completely.

All this emissions crap makes thinks worse as then tanks aren't supposed to vent direct to atmosphere anymore.

Hopefully the dealer sorts it for you
 

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Tank breather sounds likely, should hear a woosh of air when you open tank if breather blocked.

Or fuel filters but would expect them to just gradually get worse.

If fuel very low it could boil on a hot day, my 1190 did this once but in France, but it was 39c and bike only had about 4L left, 10 mins to cool down and it ran OK for a few miles to petrol station.

This should not happen with half a tank left.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks for the replies.

Yesterday the dealer took a look. No fault codes stored. I mentioned I had fitted a Boosterplug in May last year which they didn’t like and said things like that can cause carbon build up for being too rich.

They thought it was the exhaust valve misaligned. They said it was out but they calibrated it. Rode it home and it was fine. Until today. Went for a ride about 1.5 hours. The bike started to bog down again around 45min of mixed riding in the country. I stopped and turned bike off then back on at traffic lights. It fixed the problem again. However another 30min riding and it failed even worse. I was joining a dual carriageway and as I started to overtake into the 2nd lane it immediately died and I rolled over to the side of the road. Turned it off then back on and rode off. I was fuming as it was so dangerous. Leading up to the two failures today I noticed the engine temp was around 44-48 degrees C. I have about half a tank again. I also noticed some minor back fire as it started to fail the 1st time today. The bike seemed a bit lumpy in traffic during the 2nd time. Might not be related but thought I’d mention it.

Lastly; the bike was serviced by KTM early April and they did remove the tank. I’ve since done a few rides since then including a big ride from Devon to Landends and back and never had this problem before. So I’d be surprised if the tank breather hose was the issue?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Update. Just spent all evening removing the tank to remove the Boosterplug I fitted last year. Both breather hoses on top of tank seemed ok to me. Everything is in order as far as I can tell. Took care removing and refitting tank. I’ll report on my next ride to see how it goes on my next ride.
 

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Did you notice any sucking noises / rushing air when popping the filler cap? Can you also try to pop the filler cap when you are having issues and seeing if it resolves the issue immediately?

Did I read that correctly that your engine temp while driving was 48 degrees C? (On my bike it lists oil and water temp rather than "engine" is that the same for you?) Seems really, really low. Dodgy sensor perhaps? Might be throwing off a fuel map.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Did you notice any sucking noises / rushing air when popping the filler cap? Can you also try to pop the filler cap when you are having issues and seeing if it resolves the issue immediately?

Did I read that correctly that your engine temp while driving was 48 degrees C? (On my bike it lists oil and water temp rather than "engine" is that the same for you?) Seems really, really low. Dodgy sensor perhaps? Might be throwing off a fuel map.
It’s the Oil Temp reading on the dash.

I’ve opened up the fuel cap a few times but not heard anything plus the tubes seemed OK when I removed the tank yesterday. The one thing that fixes the issue is to turn the bike off and back on again. This is an immediate fix - strangely. So it “might” be to do with the exhaust flap realigning upon restart?
 

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I think the exhaust flap's failure mode is different. It fails, throws a warning then puts the bike in limp mode.

You reported no error codes, and it cutting out completely.

Also, AFAIK the exhaust valve is only closed between about 4.5-5.5K revs, and open the rest of the time. It opening and closing incorrectly shouldn't cause the bike to die, it just might make it feel a bit odd under throttle.

Its still possible for the fuel breathers to be blocked even when they are not pinched (though not likely) so I wouldn't rule that out just yet.

The dongle only affects the closed loop map which IIRC is <4.5k and just richens it up a little, so I wouldn't imagine that causing much of an issue...

Oil temp on mine considers its self warmed up @ ~45C, generally operates at ~80-98C depending on road speed and air temp.

Oil temp at ~45C after the first 5 minutes is really, deeply suspicious. You also mentioned the engine seemed really hot in your first post. Have the rad fans been coming on? I don't know what measurement the bike uses to turn on the fans, but the engine may be over heating.

I
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think the exhaust flap's failure mode is different. It fails, throws a warning then puts the bike in limp mode.

You reported no error codes, and it cutting out completely.

Also, AFAIK the exhaust valve is only closed between about 4.5-5.5K revs, and open the rest of the time. It opening and closing incorrectly shouldn't cause the bike to die, it just might make it feel a bit odd under throttle.

Its still possible for the fuel breathers to be blocked even when they are not pinched (though not likely) so I wouldn't rule that out just yet.

The dongle only affects the closed loop map which IIRC is <4.5k and just richens it up a little, so I wouldn't imagine that causing much of an issue...

Oil temp on mine considers its self warmed up @ ~45C, generally operates at ~80-98C depending on road speed and air temp.

Oil temp at ~45C after the first 5 minutes is really, deeply suspicious. You also mentioned the engine seemed really hot in your first post. Have the rad fans been coming on? I don't know what measurement the bike uses to turn on the fans, but the engine may be over heating.

I
yes when riding the bike over last few days testing this problem the Oil Temp shows between 44-48 C. That’s whilst I’m riding doing country spirited rides through B roads.

I removed the Boosterplug Tues and took it for a hour plus ride yesterday evening. There was one part of the ride I thought it was going to fail again where if started to feel like it was running out of fuel but it smoothed out within seconds and that was the only timeI noticed it. When it did feel like it was failing it wasn’t full strength like previous times. It was cooler last night than the previous midday trips I made.

I have not heard the fans come on at all during this period.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Its still possible for the fuel breathers to be blocked even when they are not pinched (though not likely) so I wouldn't rule that out just yet.

The dongle only affects the closed loop map which IIRC is <4.5k and just richens it up a little, so I wouldn't imagine that causing much of an issue...
The two fuel breather pipes seemed fine and I tried my best to make sure they were clear when fitting the tank back. Is there a way of checking?

With the Boosterplug removed the bike seen to lack power. Slightly lumpy low end and lack a little power on acceleration and top end power, all seemed lacking. Here’s what Boosterplug had to say when I told them…

“All units are tested twice (once during production, and one more time before shipping) so it's very unlikely that the module is faulty. In fact, we haven't had a single non working unit in the +80.000 BoosterPlug's we have in the market.

Also, you would see a warning in the dashboard if the BoosterPlug (Or the AIT sensor was faulty)

So if you installed the BoosterPlug correctly and there are no warnings in the dashboard, the BoosterPlug is in working order and is making the air/fuel ratio 6% richer as designed.

The small controlled fuel enrichment from the BoosterPlug can never (NEVER) over fuel the engine and cause any kind of carbon build up. We have a KTM 1290 (Super Adventure) in the shop that have had a BoosterPlug installed for the last 75.000 kms, and the exhaust valves are still as clean as when the bike was new.

There are strict limits in the KTM ECU to how much the BoosterPlug is allowed to make the air/fuel ratio richer, and even a faulty BoosterPlug could not cause the problems you describe. The KTM ECU would immediately sense an “impossible” air temperature sensor signal, flash a warning in the dashboard, and go into "limp mode”.

So I’m afraid that we can not relate this problem to the BoosterPlug.”
 

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From what you have described so far, at the very least it sounds like your oil temp sensor is faulty.

Does your bike show water temp too? If so, what is it? I don't keep track of water temps when I'm riding so I'm not sure what normal range is, but I would expect it to be close to the oil temp. If water is at 85C and Oil is at 45C, that would strongly indicate faulty oil temp sensor.

From what I recall the booster plug is literally just a precise resistor and a plug. There is no fancy electronics at all. It just "tricks" the ECU into thinking that the air temp is one specific value that results in a slightly richer mixture. Incidentally, this is why they don't work with Gen3 as the ECU actually checks to see of the value changes, if it doesn't then it throws an error.

AFAIK the booster plug makes literally no difference at all at the top end. From what I've read there is a fixed fuel map above ~4RPM, one for each riding mode.

Regarding the breathers, most foolproof way is to listen for any vacuum when opening the filler cap I think. Its possible that the connectors are gummed up even if the hoses are free (again, not likely, but possible).

Seems odd that the fans have not come on at all, mine tend to at traffic lights on a hot day at least.

I'm a little concerned that your engine is on the verge of seizing. It doesn't seem likely as I would presume there are redundant temp sensors, but I don't know.

An over heating engine has a lot more friction, and will lose power...

It could be a spark problem, but I doubt it nothing matches really. Does it only die when you give it the beans?

It could be fuel, blocked breather or fuel pump / filter failure. I seem to recall early SDRs having fuel filters that fell apart and blocked the pump. Have you had the fuel pump/filter replaced? How old is the bike?

However, personally, the first thing I would do is figure out why the oil temp reading is so low. That's clearly not right. I don't know what the knock on effect of a low oil temp reading could be, but the worst case scenario is that the cooling system doesn't do its job and you end up overheating the engine and causing some major (expensive) damage somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
From what you have described so far, at the very least it sounds like your oil temp sensor is faulty.

Does your bike show water temp too? If so, what is it? I don't keep track of water temps when I'm riding so I'm not sure what normal range is, but I would expect it to be close to the oil temp. If water is at 85C and Oil is at 45C, that would strongly indicate faulty oil temp sensor.

From what I recall the booster plug is literally just a precise resistor and a plug. There is no fancy electronics at all. It just "tricks" the ECU into thinking that the air temp is one specific value that results in a slightly richer mixture. Incidentally, this is why they don't work with Gen3 as the ECU actually checks to see of the value changes, if it doesn't then it throws an error.

AFAIK the booster plug makes literally no difference at all at the top end. From what I've read there is a fixed fuel map above ~4RPM, one for each riding mode.

Regarding the breathers, most foolproof way is to listen for any vacuum when opening the filler cap I think. Its possible that the connectors are gummed up even if the hoses are free (again, not likely, but possible).

Seems odd that the fans have not come on at all, mine tend to at traffic lights on a hot day at least.

I'm a little concerned that your engine is on the verge of seizing. It doesn't seem likely as I would presume there are redundant temp sensors, but I don't know.

An over heating engine has a lot more friction, and will lose power...

It could be a spark problem, but I doubt it nothing matches really. Does it only die when you give it the beans?

It could be fuel, blocked breather or fuel pump / filter failure. I seem to recall early SDRs having fuel filters that fell apart and blocked the pump. Have you had the fuel pump/filter replaced? How old is the bike?

However, personally, the first thing I would do is figure out why the oil temp reading is so low. That's clearly not right. I don't know what the knock on effect of a low oil temp reading could be, but the worst case scenario is that the cooling system doesn't do its job and you end up overheating the engine and causing some major (expensive) damage somewhere.
Bike in at KTM tomorrow. I’m on a non stop ride now. I’ve just pulled over after my first engine die. I’ve been out for 55min on A roads going fast and in slow traffic. I was behind white van man going a bit too slow for my liking. When I had a chance I opened the bike up from about 30-40mph on the flat and it instantly lost power. I’ve overtaken plenty today but this is my first failure. As I ride behind white van man I open the fuel cap. I hear no noise. I click it closed and then open the bike up and I get instant power however by then white van man is way ahead of me so I catch up and the bike starts to hold back at around 70mph momentarily officer! Now I’m in a car park! Oil Temp reached 52 C and ambient temp reached 25 C. Fuel is showing 180 miles 7/8 bars full. Bike is 2019 and done 12K miles mostly on nice days.

The more I ride the more predictable all this is. And no there’s no water temp on the dash that I can find.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
photo taken yesterday when I stopped to post my reply showing the Oil Temp. The Temp lines have never increased past half way 4 bars out of 8. So it looks normal to me.

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Interesting, for me my Oil temp starts at ambient (obviously) and climbs up to ~45C within 2 or 3 minutes. At ~45C the engine temp goes from "cold" to "ok" and I consider the engine warmed up. Over the next 5 minutes or so the oil temp climbs to ~80-85C and more or less stays there. If I'm riding quickly it'll dip to ~78C and if I'm riding slowly it will climb to around 95C or so.

All the above is with ambient temps of ~15-20C

So for my bike it would be extremely odd for the oil temp to stay at 50C.

Mine is a 22 GT, so Euro5, which may make a difference but surely not that big?

Can anyone else with a GT weigh in on that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Interesting, for me my Oil temp starts at ambient (obviously) and climbs up to ~45C within 2 or 3 minutes. At ~45C the engine temp goes from "cold" to "ok" and I consider the engine warmed up. Over the next 5 minutes or so the oil temp climbs to ~80-85C and more or less stays there. If I'm riding quickly it'll dip to ~78C and if I'm riding slowly it will climb to around 95C or so.

All the above is with ambient temps of ~15-20C

So for my bike it would be extremely odd for the oil temp to stay at 50C.

Mine is a 22 GT, so Euro5, which may make a difference but surely not that big?

Can anyone else with a GT weigh in on that?
Interesting. Found an older thread about oil temperatures and it does seem they run hotter than I’m finding on mine. So let’s just say for arguments sake that my temperature gauge is under reading. Would the ECU react to higher temperatures by shutting fuel off when under load or pushing the engine like in overtakes?

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
And here’s another thread with very similar problems. One solution that keeps coming up is the “replace fuel filter”.

 
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